Is there anything scarier than realizing you might need a divorce—then sitting across from a lawyer and realizing you have no idea what to ask for, what you’re entitled to, or what comes next? It’s overwhelming. And for many women, that fear keeps them from taking the first step.
But as I always say: knowledge is power. The more informed you are, the more powerful you become. That’s why I invited someone who brings both personal insight and professional expertise to this conversation.
Meet Rachel Kipnis—a senior associate at GWHS Law and a seasoned family attorney who has spent years helping women navigate the legal landscape of divorce. She’s also a divorced co-parent herself, which gives her a dual perspective few attorneys can offer.
How Can Women Uncouple With Legal and Emotional Clarity?
RACHEL KIPNIS (Guest)
You’ve known me through my entire evolution—from being married, to separated, to now a co-parent and a full-time divorce attorney. I help clients uncouple with as much dignity, strategy, and emotional clarity as possible.
MICHELLE
That’s why I wanted you on. So many women delay or avoid this process because they’re overwhelmed. You’ve seen the mistakes. You know what to fight for—and what to let go of.
🔹 Rachel’s Core Legal Insights:
Most people don’t know what they’re entitled to until it’s too late.
Women often prioritize emotions over strategy in early divorce stages.
Many fail to plan for long-term financial security or custody shifts.
What Mistakes Do Most People Make in Divorce?
RACHEL
People forget to ask for things that really matter later: like who gets the tax deduction for the child, who pays for extracurriculars, or what to do with inherited property.
MICHELLE
So much of what ends up in court later could have been avoided with a more informed agreement upfront.
QUOTE:
“People think divorce is just about splitting assets. It’s not. It’s a negotiation about how you’ll live your life after this chapter ends.” — Rachel Kipnis
Is It Really Possible to Have an Amicable Divorce?
MICHELLE
Everybody starts off saying, “We want this to be amicable.” Then someone hires a bulldog lawyer and all bets are off.
RACHEL
Exactly. You can’t control the other side—but you can control your team. If your lawyer escalates things unnecessarily, you’re paying for it emotionally and financially. Look for attorneys who align with your values, not your vengeance.
What Legal Protections Are Most Often Overlooked?
RACHEL
One major mistake? Not updating your estate plan. If you don’t change your will, your ex could still inherit everything.
Also, don’t underestimate how much your parenting time agreement impacts holidays, schooling, and child care flexibility.
QUOTE:
“Divorce isn’t just about the end of a relationship. It’s about the beginning of a new legal identity.” — Rachel Kipnis
What If You’re Still Grieving—But Need to Parent?
MICHELLE
That duality of still being emotionally wrecked but needing to show up for your kids… it’s brutal.
RACHEL
There were times I cried on the floor of my closet. But then I had to get up and make breakfast. You don’t get to opt out of motherhood because your heart is broken.
Memorable Quotes from the Episode
“You don’t have to be okay to be a good mom. You just have to be present.” – Michelle Multack
“Validation is the most underrated legal strategy. When you feel seen, you think clearer.” – Rachel Kipnis
“Grieving and parenting aren’t mutually exclusive. They coexist, messily.” – Michelle Multack
“You need a lawyer who protects your peace, not just your property.” – Rachel Kipnis
Full Transcript:
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Is there anything scarier than realizing you need a divorce, and then speaking to an attorney, and then realizing now you have no idea what to ask for, what to do, what to say, what you’re entitled to, all of it can feel really, really overwhelming. And it’s probably why a lot of people don’t make any moves to begin with. But like I always say, knowledge is power.
And the more knowledge we bring to you, the more powerful you’re going to feel, which is why I’m so excited to have my friend Rachel with us today. Rachel is a senior associate at GWHS Law. She’s a family attorney for a long time now, helping people uncouple in the best and most informed way possible.
And she herself is a divorced co-parent. So she’s got a lot to bring to the table, including what mistakes not to make, what to forget to ask for, what’s really reasonable to fight over. All of these things will probably help you a lot before you just go into battle unprepared.
I’m so excited for you to meet Rachel.
Rachel Kipnis
Rachel, I’m so happy you’re here. I’m so happy that you invited me. Thank you so much.
I know, it’s like a playdate. It is. Well, that is how this started.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
We said, let’s hang out. It’s a divorce playdate. And I feel like you and I met years ago.
We did. Under different circumstances. I had a different career.
You had a different career. You had a different spouse. Was that before you were married or after?
Rachel Kipnis
I think we met before I was married. So you knew me through my whole marriage and before I had a child.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Then you were with child. And now you are with child without partner, but hey, it happens, obviously. What is like the actual…
To the best of us. Cheers. What is like the actual most recent divorce statistic?
Do we know?
Rachel Kipnis
It’s over 50% because second marriages are at a much higher rate than first marriages. Right. And same-sex female couples are at the highest rate of divorce.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Same-sex female couples are higher than same-sex male couples? Yes. Yes.
Interesting. Yes. That could be a whole podcast in itself.
Rachel Kipnis
There’s really interesting statistics around second marriages and same-sex marriages and the heightened divorce rates in those marriages. Okay.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Well, I’d like to say that if the divorce process were easier or less scary, the first rate statistic would probably be much higher. I think so many people I talk to and I meet will say, I want to go, but I’m just like terrified of the whole legal process, or it’s going to be too expensive, or it’s just not worth a headache. And I’d rather be unhappy.
Rachel Kipnis
And I think that you’re completely right. And that people stay in marriages for different reasons. One of the reasons I think that we’ve talked about and that you talk about a lot is they don’t know what’s going to happen next.
And so the devil I know is better than the devil I don’t. And I know what my life is like now. I know what it’s like financially.
I know how much I see my kids. I know I don’t really like my spouse and that maybe they’re not so nice to me, or I don’t feel seen by them, or I don’t feel affectionate with them, but I’m not alone.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Right. Right. For sure.
And look, it’s easier said than done. You’ve done it. I’ve done it.
It is a very uncomfortable process, but it’s temporary versus like going through like, you know, anything you want to get to in life that’s going to eventually lead to success and happiness is probably going to be a little uncomfortable in the process. But I have found that like, and this is why I’m so glad we’re talking because people will say to me, oh yeah, you know, my ex and I talked and we want to separate and we want to do things amicably. And then they go and lawyer up and like amicable, like went out the window, exit stage left.
And if they’re not going into this legal process prepared, it’s like they get steamrolled by there’s different kinds of lawyers. Yeah. Let’s talk about that.
Rachel Kipnis
Different lawyers handle things different ways. And I think it’s really, really, really, really important when you go and have a consultation with a lawyer, whether it’s because you’re thinking I might want to get divorced and I’m not sure what that looks like. Or we have people who come in and say, I’m having all these problems in my marriage.
What am I supposed to do now? Maybe the answer is get a pre postnuptial agreement. Maybe the answer is separate for a period of time and have a temporary parenting plan during that time.
At our firm, we really like to do things pre-suit, which is outside of the litigation system. So it’s a couple that says, we’re going to get divorced. We know that we’re going to get divorced.
We’re not going to put it in the judicial system yet. We’re going to come up with all of the solutions together with our attorneys, and then we’re going to file for divorce. And at the same time, file our marital settlement agreement.
It slows things down an enormous amount. And I think that slowing things down generally is a good idea. You want to move through the process, not in a rushed, hurried, anxious way.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
I did it because I was, I mean, this was eight and a half years ago where I thought the sooner I get it done, the easier life is going to be. And then I was left with a whole host of like mistakes in my parenting plan and life did not then get easier. Preach.
Yeah. Right. I know.
I know.
Rachel Kipnis
I separated and got divorced very quickly. My ex-spouse is an attorney also. We actually worked on an enormous amount of the agreement together and we did a pretty good job.
But also we were people who had never been divorced before. And so we didn’t know what our lives were going to be like. And one of the, I know you’re going to want to talk about this more, but one of the big things that we didn’t think about was we had a daughter who was less than a year old when we got divorced.
Well, what’s life like when she’s three years old? Well, what’s life like? And I don’t know, the answer is when she’s 15 years old and she doesn’t want to spend the weekend with either of us.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Right. Right. No.
And I, and I fully own for people because I went through it and I know my clients go through it in that moment in time. It feels like your child is always going to be this age and it’s always going to be like this. And you think you have it figured out at this stage in their lives.
Right. But that’s parenting. Then the next stage you’re like, wait, I kind of don’t know what to do now.
But you don’t, unless you have a lawyer who says to you, like, think about this, think about that. You don’t. I mean, at least I didn’t in my, in my experience.
Rachel Kipnis
And I, I had a great lawyer. I really love my, I still have my lawyer, we’re still friends and he did a wonderful job for me. It is really hard when you’re trying to move very quickly, specifically to get everything right.
And I don’t think any parenting plan or marital settlement agreement gets everything right. But certainly if you can slow down a little bit and think about, okay, my daughter’s a year old. This is how we want to spend her birthday when she’s one year old.
This I want to spend mother’s day when she’s one year old. And maybe when she’s five years old, we don’t want to split the day on mother’s day, or we don’t want to split the day on Thanksgiving. Maybe at that point, we’re going to be more comfortable to say every other year.
The hope is always that your marital settlement agreement and your parenting plan is the floor and that you with your co-parent can make better decisions for your child as you go along. I like that metaphor. It’s always true.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
It’s also your security blanket. It’s your insurance. Right, right.
But I think the people who need to exercise the parenting plan more are going to be in situations where one just refuses to follow it. So yeah, having it to fall back on is great as per the parenting plan, which are very scary words to say if you’re trying to be amicable. But yeah, in best case scenario, you’re flexible.
My daughter’s coming home from camp Friday. My husband was like, whose weekend is it when she gets home? I’m like, I don’t know.
We stopped knowing whose weekend was whose.
Rachel Kipnis
And your daughter’s older also, so she has more choice. She says, I want to have a sleepover with my girlfriends. I want to go away to camp all summer long.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Those are things that are not in my parents. Those are things that are not in my parents. Because if you would have asked me when she was two, is she going to sleepaway camp one day, I would have said, absolutely not.
She stays with me forever. Right. And now here we are.
Okay, so I imagine, and I know because I refer clients to lawyers all the time. There’s a lot of hemming and hawing. People call you, then they’re not ready, then they’ll call you again and they think they’re ready to file, and then they’re not.
What is that process like? How long? Do people sit on it for a while?
Rachel Kipnis
I can tell very quickly when that’s going to be someone. When someone comes in, 10 minutes in, I had a consultation last week with a partner of mine, and we talked to her. And they will tell you pretty, it’s very rare that someone is saying, I really want to file for divorce.
And then we never hear from them again, and they never file. It is much more common that someone will come in and say, I want to file for divorce. And 20 minutes into the consultation, they say, well, but first, we’re going to go do three months of therapy.
And we’re going to do this, this and this. And I just wanted to get information from you. And I think that’s great.
Get information. And there’s no shame in that coming to a lawyer and saying, what would it look like? I want to know as much as possible.
What would it look like if I got divorced? What would you need from me? What financial documents do I need to come up with?
What would time-sharing look like with my 12-year-old and 15-year-old? Do they get to stay in the same school that they’ve been in? Are they going to live with me?
Am I going to end up with my house? And we can’t answer those questions definitively, but we can start to talk through, okay, what does your life look like if you file or if you do something pre-suit? And what does your life look like after you get divorced?
Can you afford that?
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Do you, are you, have you not worked in 10 years? This is good, because one of the questions I wanted to ask you is like, what do you wish, knowing what you know and doing the work that you do and also having been divorced, what do you wish clients understood before, about divorce before they filed?
Rachel Kipnis
So my divorce financially was very easy. We didn’t have really complicated assets. We, you know, had met each other as state attorneys.
We worked for the government. We had bought a home together a couple of years before we got divorced. Everything we had was a marital asset.
We didn’t own separate businesses. We’re both attorneys. We’re W-2 employees.
Like, this is a very financially, very simple divorce. People who have more complex finances should try to get their arms around them before you come to us, if possible, and if not, be ready to talk through that idea with me. My husband has three businesses.
One was started before we got married. Two were started when we were married. We, he owned a home before we got married.
He sold that home. We bought our marital home. Do you know how your home is titled?
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Okay, but here’s the thing, Airball. Most petitioners are, the higher number of petitioners are women, and most often, at least in the ones that I work with, they’re like, I don’t know where any money is. I don’t know what’s what.
I don’t know how much they’re making. I’ve been just stay-at-home momming, which is beautiful in its own way, but I don’t know. So how do I come to an attorney and say, here’s what we’ve got?
So that’s a really scary place to be in.
Rachel Kipnis
And I think that sometimes that makes people avoid us. I don’t know the answers to the quiz that I’m going to get at the lawyer’s office, so I’m just not going to go to the lawyer, and I’m not going to deal with it. Precisely.
Some of it is public record. How your home is titled is public record. You can go on your county, for us, Miami-Dade County, for me, Miami-Dade County Property Appraiser’s Office.
You can look up anyone’s address. I might not have a day years old. Okay.
I do it all the time. Someone will come in and say, I don’t know if my home is in a trust or if it’s titled to me and my husband. Give me two seconds.
I’ll tell you the answer. Oh my God. That’s in Florida.
Florida has something called the Sunshine Law. We have very, very, very open records. Other states may be different.
But I’m telling you, I practice in Florida, so this is what I’m dealing with. Every county has a property appraiser’s office. Everything is online.
Okay. So that’s a good jumping off point. I know what my house is worth.
And how it’s titled. Is it your house or is it your husband’s house? Is it a trust’s house?
Is it a business’ house?
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Let’s say you got married and you think it’s our house. We bought it together, but your name was never on the title or the deed. You have no rights to it.
It’s complicated.
Rachel Kipnis
Okay. That’s always the answer for lawyers, right? It’s complicated.
If you’re paying for it out of marital assets, which your income when you’re married is a marital asset, then it’s your home together. There’s a kind of deeper and more intricate question of how is the home originally funded? Do you have a prenuptial agreement that separates out that home?
Do you have a postnuptial agreement that separates out that home? Was it a gift given to you or your spouse during the time of the marriage? It gets a little more complicated, but title’s a really good way to look at things.
Title will control unless there’s another document that’s saying title doesn’t control. And how you paid for things, just thinking of it as not complex as I can, how you paid for things matters. So money that you made during your marriage is marital monies.
And if you paid for your home with that money, it’s partially yours unless there’s something else saying it’s not. Right. Okay.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Got it. That helps. I remember, and I think this is very classic to women, there’s a shame around spending money, right?
So when I was filling out my financial affidavit, I felt like I was divulging secrets and was going to be judged in shame. How much are you spending on your maintenance? And I remember, I think it was my attorney who was like, you get your period every month, you buy a box of tampons, now you buy two.
Round up. And I was like, but, but, but, and she was like, nobody’s judging you on this. It’s just to get a clearer picture.
And it helps you, too, to understand what you need monthly to survive. But so many women will be like, I don’t want it. I don’t want much Botox, right?
Rachel Kipnis
I don’t want to say that I’m coloring my hair and I get a blowout every week. Right, right, right, right, right. That’s your life.
That financial affidavit is initially how you’re going to start looking at alimony, if you’re entitled to alimony. And so you want your real expenses. Don’t cut yourself short.
Everything is negotiable. By the way, your lifestyle might be adjusted. If you’re going to get your nails done once a week, maybe you’re not getting your nails done once a week.
So when we’re calculating your alimony, it’s like, well, once every three weeks seems more reasonable. Yeah, that’s what we can really ask for.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Right, right, right, right. I see these like divorce or like celebrity like payouts that are like she gets $40,000 a month, you know, for her maintenance. And I’m like, I love that.
Imagine having the balls to spend that and like actually own up to it. OK, so big mistake in this process would be like. Lowering your worth.
Metaphorically and physically.
Rachel Kipnis
In the world, that’s a big mistake. Wow. But certainly here, right?
Don’t say that you’re because you’re embarrassed because you and your spouse thought about how much you were spending on your hair, your nails, your car, your groceries, whatever. This is not the time to try to please your spouse with how much you are spending.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Be real. Fair enough. But many women who are unhappy in their marriages and are threatening divorce and that fight happens over and over.
And then the husband says, great, leave me. I’m not going to give you a dime. Does it really work like that?
No, that’s not the law, right? But that’s scary.
Rachel Kipnis
That feels scary.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
That keeps a lot. People will say to me, I want to leave, but he said he won’t give me anything. And I’m like, I don’t I don’t know that it works like that.
Rachel Kipnis
So alimony and child support is it’s a really it’s a mathematical calculation. It’s just not all that complicated. It’s not based on opinion.
It’s definitely not based on opinion. Alimony in Florida is the lesser of two numbers. One, your actual need.
So you look at all of the sources of income that you have. That can be your job. That can be a trust fund that you’re regularly getting distributions from.
That can be dividends from, you know, investments that you have. Every amount of income that you’re getting, every amount of income that your spouse is getting. What’s your actual need after you look at all of your actual income?
So maybe you need an extra $3,000 a month. You look at 35% of the difference of your incomes, the lower number of those two. The $3,000 or the 35% of the difference in your incomes.
How long are you going to get that alimony for? It depends how long you were married for. There’s under 10-year marriages, 10 to 20-year marriages, and over 20-year marriages.
And each one has a percentage of time of your marriage that you’ll get that you’re entitled. That’s the maximum duration of alimony. I mean, the math isn’t math in my head because this is I’m like, okay, cool.
The point that I’m trying to make to you is not that you should try to figure out the calculation on your own. It’s that there is a calculation that the courts look at. The court doesn’t say, well, how much does Joe want to give Mary?
Okay, he seems more reasonable. He feels like he was a better spender during the marriage.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
We’re going to listen to Joe. That’s helpful. No, I think women in general just feel a lot of shame around what they spent, honestly.
I mean, I still like for personally, I’m like, oh my God, am I really spending this much on, I don’t know, home repairs this month? Like spending is looked at negatively, I think, when a woman’s doing it.
Rachel Kipnis
Yes, and it brings me to something that I would love to talk to you about because I had a long conversation about it over the weekend, and it’s related to alimony, and it’s lump sum alimony. So I was talking, I was at a workshop over the weekend, this five day long course that I took, and one of my workshop leaders was a judge in Seminole County who is a board certified marital and family law attorney. So he practiced in this area for a long time.
So he is like really immersed in our world. And he said, I think that lump sum alimony is one of the most underutilized tools. And I said, I completely agree with you.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
So lump sum alimony is instead of getting that monthly check from your ex, you’re just taking it all up front.
Rachel Kipnis
Yeah, maybe you get it in four payments. Do you have to pay taxes on it? Alimony is not tax deductible to the payee or taxable to the recipient.
Got it, okay. So that’s different than some other things which are tax affected, like if you take a distribution from a 401k. There is an emotion and an energy connected to transferring money between people.
It happens when you buy something at the grocery, when you buy clothing for yourself. If you are checking out at the clothing store, do you think, well, I worked really hard and now I can deserve this incredible thing and I provide it for myself? Or do you feel like, maybe I shouldn’t spend that much money?
Right, that’s what I’m saying. So now imagine doing that once a month with your ex.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Okay.
Rachel Kipnis
Right, I have to ask you for money every month. That was what our agreement was in our marriage too, that I always had to come to you and be like, is it okay if I spend this much on a dress? So now every month, I’m waiting for you to pay me.
It’s a control thing. And they don’t feel good about it. She spent too much in our marriage.
She was always spending too much. And now look at this, I’m not even married to her and I’m still paying for her clothes. I’m still paying for her Botox.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
You can’t just put it on like auto pay? You can, but you still see it coming in and out of your bank. Right, right, right, right.
That is a really good point because I say it all the time, you can go to court, you can sign a paper, get divorced, but the emotional piece, that’s the real work. Emotionally feeling free and separated from this person, I guess, there’s that little thing connecting you still. Wow, I never thought about that.
Rachel Kipnis
Yeah, I feel very strong about that. I also recognize that it’s a privilege to have that much money to be able to pay someone out. And it really depends on the length of your marriage.
If you were in a short-term marriage and you’re paying for two years of alimony, it’s much easier to do than if you were married for 25 years and you’re paying for 18 years of alimony. That’s a much bigger number. Right, right, absolutely.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Okay, so financially, get it all out there, get it all up front. What are some things that people or your clients have, you’ve had to remind them, hey, you got to ask for this or you have to factor in this idea. What are people forgetting because they’re just so nervous to get it all done?
So I think we started talking, the financial part is actually easier, right?
Rachel Kipnis
It’s pretty cut and dry. You look at all of your assets, you say what’s theirs, what’s mine, what is both of ours, and we split it up. You put it in a chart.
It’s not super, it is complicated, but it’s not like rocket science. If it’s really complicated, you start to build a team, right? So like you’re a team member in divorces.
You are talking to women about how to psychologically be in their divorce, how to psychologically be in their co-parenting relationship. A forensic accountant could be on your team. Someone who’s going to go through all of your credit card bills and go through all of your bank statements.
Ooh, that’s scary, right?
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
This is why I love the collaborative divorce methods. I feel like that should be standard. I have feelings on collaborative.
Rachel Kipnis
I would love to talk about it. Good or bad ones. Okay, so collaborative divorce is this concept.
I took a whole course on it. Yeah, I’m going to. I want to get trained in it.
I think that there’s some skills that are a part of it that are wonderful. There are people, and I was with some of them over the weekend, who believe that collaborative should be mandated and that you should have to start in collaborative. I don’t believe that.
I think that there are certain relationships that don’t work well. So collaborative divorce.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
A very controlling narcissistic spouse can’t go into it. No, and what happens is if you… So a collaborative divorce is essentially each person has a lawyer who…
The lawyers work together instead of against each other. There’s a facilitator who is usually a mental health professional who will help you make best decisions for the kids and oversee the process. A financial professional.
So you’ve got a whole team working together with you, not trying to bait and switch. It’s beautiful, but if you go through that whole process and you can’t come to an agreement, it’s null and void, and then you have to start from scratch.
Rachel Kipnis
So everyone signs a contract that they’re going to be invested in this process, essentially. That is what collaborative professionals will tell you is the glue of collaborative, is that you lose all of your professionals if you can’t come to a resolution. So it stops people from being so litigious, right?
If I’m saying, well, I really want this plan, and you’re saying, well, that plan was for my grandmother, and it’s so important to me. Do we want to get new lawyers and new forensic accountants and new mental health professionals and a new parenting coordinator?
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Or can we just give up all this money already and we’re going to fight over a plan? Right, right. Yeah.
It gets you out of the weeds. Yeah. So you’re right.
I mean, you have to know who you’re dealing with. If you are not dealing with a reasonable person, a collaborative divorce process probably wouldn’t be the best thing. But, you know, I don’t know.
I don’t know. You tell us. You’re the expert.
Rachel Kipnis
I don’t know. It’s just not for everyone. There’s different things that are for different people.
Pre-suit is for some people, and it’s not for other people. If you have a spouse that’s trying to flee the jurisdiction, pre-suit’s not for you. So pre-suit to me is sort of a middle ground between collaborative and what we call cooperative, which is like traditional litigation, filing your case, serving your ex-spouse.
Pre-suit’s a little bit in the middle. I want to work with you, but we’re going to have our own lawyers. We might have a financial issue that we each need to have our own forensic accountants because we’re dissipating our marital assets in some manner from gambling, from a girlfriend, whatever.
It’s a middle ground to that. I think that there are some principles to collaborative that are really good. And one of those principles is about hiring other professionals to help you.
You can still use neutral professionals in a cooperative divorce. You can say, we don’t really have a complicated. No one thinks that anyone stole money, but we do have these businesses that need to be valued, and we don’t know how to do that on our own, and our attorneys and paralegals can’t do that.
Let’s hire one forensic accountant and figure out how much of this business was premarital, what the marital portion is. Okay, no problem.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
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So all you need to do is visit worthy.com slash moms. And I’m going to give you an extra hundred dollars on me. If your jewelry sells for over 1500, that’s worthy.com slash moms. And I’ve got you covered for me, the best part. And I want to segue into this now is the perspective it gives the parents on the child. Because every divorce situation, you have two people going in, whether it’s collaborative or it’s litigious or whatever it is.
You have two people going in with this. They’re on the defense. They’re trying to protect themselves.
It’s all very self-serving, right? Because I’m hurt, you’re hurt. This is mine.
No, this is mine. I want. And it’s like there’s little kids here like, hello.
And nobody is forcing you to look through their lens unless you work with, you know, an outside person like myself. Or you have a parenting coordinator on the collaborative end, which isn’t very popular yet. So, you know, how many times are you having to be?
And I know you’re a good lawyer, so you would do this. But how often do you have to like reframe for clients like, hey, wait, this isn’t about you or him or her. Tell me about the kids.
Rachel Kipnis
So I had a lawyer when I was getting divorced who used to say this to me. And I now tell this story to clients all the time and I say it to them. I would say, I want this and I want to get this.
And this is how I want things to go. And this is how we should structure this. And it’s very hard because I am a lawyer who practices in this area getting divorced.
And he would say, that sounds incredible. And please let me know the lawyer that is able to get that for you. Because that would be unbelievable if you could get that.
Right, right, right. Okay, you’re right. That is unbelievable.
So we’re not going to get that. And he would really, I think that is the role of a lawyer, a good lawyer who really takes on that role of counselor is to say, it would be great if you could have 100% time sharing with your daughter. And whenever you and her felt like it was the best thing for her to go to the other parent, you could make that decision alone.
You’d get just parent by yourself. That’s not happening.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Okay, but do you know how many lawyers would be like, yeah, let’s fight for it because they’re a narcissist. And you’re like, really? Okay.
And you’re being completely misled because someone wants to drag this case on. That happens a lot. What are some signs people can look for if they realize their lawyer is completely taking advantage of a situation?
Rachel Kipnis
I think when you’re doing your consultation, your lawyer should disagree with you sometimes. Your lawyer should say, you’re not going to want to hear this. But here’s what’s real.
If you come in and you say, here’s how we’re going to do parenting plan. I’m going to have all week long and every other weekend. And my ex is going to have every other weekend and a weekend this summer.
Well, in Florida, we have a presumption of 50-50 time sharing. So unless your ex spouse says, this is what I want, that’s not happening. No court is giving you that.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
So if a lawyer is overpromising, yeah, we’ll definitely get you that. Red flag? Yeah.
For sure. If anyone’s overpromising, red flag. How about the lawyer who’s like, I’ve got you and I love to go to court?
Rachel Kipnis
I don’t. I mean, I love being in court. Let’s be real.
I was a jury trial girl. Fine, but can’t the majority of these things be settled out of court? Statistically, they are.
So the question is, how much money do you want to spend on it before it settles out of court? Because it’s going to. I think our statistic is 90% now, don’t go to trial.
That’s beautiful. So that’s you. You’re more statistic in your firm.
No, that is the Florida statistic, I believe.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Our firm is lower than that. I love that. We’re not in court a lot.
I love that. I think people who are not divorced or just have this idea of divorce from watching movies or just the negative connotation it has in society, imagines themselves in court in front of a judge with two lawyers yelling and screaming. And I’m like, wait, but it doesn’t have to get to that.
But people will say, oh, my lawyer thinks we should go to trial over this. And I’m like, over one, from 50-50 to 60-40, you’re going to go spend $100,000 in court for one day on the calendar per week.
Rachel Kipnis
And that, by the way, is really where it lands most of the time. Unless it’s that it ends up somewhere between 60 and 40. Because there’s a presumption of 50-50.
I don’t think it’s a great presumption. I think it’s not a good statute. Whatever.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
That’s a different conversation. But no, but that’s fair because I think the younger your kids are, the harder a split is going to be. And I’ve had clients who’s six months old, have six-month-olds.
I have one with twins. She’s still breastfeeding, but there’s 50-50. Like, how do you?
Right.
Rachel Kipnis
And this is what I try to remind clients of. You hate your spouse right now. They’re the worst person you’ve ever met.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
You can’t believe that everyone has a personality disorder. But to be fair, if you are dealing with one, it does make this that much harder and scarier. So give yourself grace.
Rachel Kipnis
And I also believe that a lot of people have narcissistic traits. That all come out when your ego is bruised. 100%.
In a divorce. So I will often say to clients, I know the law part. I don’t need you to help me calculate alimony.
I don’t need you to figure out most of a parenting plan. But you know your ex-spouse. So I will help you.
I’ll ghostwrite for you if you want me to. And I’ll help you think through, be a thought partner with you about how to have conversations with your ex-spouse. But this is someone that you loved.
You fell in love with this person. You married them because you thought they were a great person. Then you had a child with them because you thought they were wonderful and were going to be a good parent with you.
Most of the time. I understand there are exceptions to what I’m saying. And as much as you can to bring yourself back into that, that you had some respect for this person.
And that they’re on their worst behavior, and so you don’t have to be on your worst behavior.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Right. We need one sane person because as we know, children need one stable and reasonable caregiver to thrive. But I had a professor in my marriage and family therapy program a few years ago.
Actually the one who taught the collaborative course. She’s a parenting coordinator on a collaborative team who did something. She taught us something that I thought was so great.
She said if you’re going to work with a client in any capacity who is divorcing and trying to figure out a parenting plan. And everyone’s like at each other’s throats. Bring the child into the room.
Not literally, but ask both parents to bring in their favorite picture of them with their child. And she said every time she would do it, the mood would soften.
Rachel Kipnis
Yeah.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Like it just was like a reminder of like you’re not here for you. You know, I’ll never forget my daughter. I want to say it was a couple years ago at this point.
And I shared this example on social media how it was my weekend. And her dad got tickets to like a messy game, an inter-Miami game. You know, a soccer game.
And Bella played soccer at the time. So he said, I got these tickets. Do you mind if I take her?
I’m like, of course not. That’s amazing. Go.
What am I going to say? It’s my Friday night. And then he’s going to say to Bella, I wanted to take you, but mommy didn’t let me.
No way. So and I’m telling Bella about you’re going to go with daddy. And she’s, you know, little kids get rigid.
They like their schedule. She’s like, but it’s your weekend. And I was like, baby, it’s your life.
Right. It’s not my weekend, dad. It’s your life.
You just moved between two houses, you know. And like reinforcing that fact to her is also important to reinforce to these parents who think in this mindset of like percentages. Like your child’s not a timeshare in the south of France.
No, really. But that is actually a phrase.
Rachel Kipnis
Return the library book. Is a phrase that I say to myself all the time. This is my daughter’s time.
This is not my time. This is my time to be her chauffeur. This is my time to provide food for her.
This is my time to make sure that she’s safe and happy. But it’s all her time. And I also recognize it is very hard to be the only person who does that.
That you are the only person who’s thinking my ex invited her to a messy game. And so, of course, she should go. It’s so fun.
They’re going to have the best time. And then you’re talking up your spouse. You’re going to have so much fun at dad’s house.
It’s going to be great. And then you say, hey, I have a brunch with my girlfriends and all their daughters. Would it be OK if I had an extra hour?
And he’s like, that’s my time. Yeah. Yeah.
And you’re like, but. But I just gave you 12 extra hours.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Right. Right. Right.
Right. Right.
Rachel Kipnis
And then you get into that kind of like, which happens usually. Yeah. Yeah.
And I just try to remind myself and I try to help clients remember this, that it’s all their time. So if you’re and yeah, your child’s going to miss out on some things with you if you have a spouse that’s very ex-spouse, that’s very rigid and doesn’t want to do anything but the parenting plan, except when it’s to their advantage. You’re trying to give your child the most positive opportunities available to them.
And so they’re missing out on one with you, but they’re getting one with them.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Well, another thing I think that should be standard in the divorce process when you are splitting up a life and there are children involved. Have you heard of the Children’s Bill of Rights and Divorce? I talk about it all the time.
Dr. Robert Emery. It’s not an actual legal document, so don’t ask the judge for it. But I remember when my daughter was very, very young and we went to see a co-parenting therapist, it was printed out and like left there for us.
And this psychologist put together what he thinks are like the things that should like a commandments for children in divorce, what they should be entitled to. And the number one thing is the right to be a kid. Number two is a life that is as close to what it would have been had the parents stayed married.
And I feel like if that were printed alongside the standard state parenting plan that your lawyer is going to hand you, the perspective would shift so much. So going back to taking things to court, more people are in court, end up in court fighting over money or kids.
Rachel Kipnis
I think it’s pretty even, frankly, and I don’t have a statistic on that, but my feeling on what I’m doing, I think that there’s more post-judgment. So after you get divorced, issues around kids. Post-judgment money issues are, you know, they didn’t pay child support, they didn’t pay their alimony.
And generally that’s going to get resolved before you go to court because it’s so expensive to let it go. But why are people going back to court after the divorce? Because they didn’t think about the future.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Because of the poorly written parenting plan?
Rachel Kipnis
Sure. I don’t want to knock everyone out of my profession, but because they were focused on, and I’m guilty of it. And I’m guilty of it.
My 10-month-old. Right. And all I can think about is that she’s 10 months old and what life should be like for a 10-month-old.
And I still don’t know. We’re going to come up with issues and we haven’t gotten there yet. And I hope that my ex-wife and I are in a place where we can just figure it out on our own.
And I think that we will be. We’re really working our way towards being really cooperative co-parents with each other. But we’re starting to see it come up.
We’re like, Mother’s Day. We both want to be with her. Millie has two moms.
So both moms want to be with her Mother’s Day. Right. It kind of sucks for both of us, actually.
Because one of us wakes up with her in the morning, one of us doesn’t. I really prefer to be the one who doesn’t. That is like a gift for me on Mother’s Day is to go out the night before and sleep in and not get up with her in the morning.
Great. But then at some point in the afternoon, it’s kind of a disruption. She’s still napping.
The other parent has to stop whatever they were doing. They were enjoying time with their family and their mom. Now you have to stop and drop off with the other parents.
It’s a pain. It’s a pain. It’s a real pain.
And I don’t know the solution to that, which is this child has two mothers and she wants to be with both of them. She wants to be with both of them. We both want to be with her.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
It’s a problem, though. Right. Right.
And it’s like I said, you know, when we were talking about this off camera, if the situation were you were in a hetero marriage, no brainer, mom gets Mother’s Day. But for you guys to do an every other year type of thing, like she’s got two moms. Yes, we split fathers today, too.
Rachel Kipnis
Because we have men in our lives. She has three grandfathers. And she has uncles.
And, you know, there’s other people in her life.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
But yeah, you don’t think about these things. And so now you’re years past finalizing your divorce. This parenting plan is just not working.
Is the risk really worth the reward to go to court and argue over something and now put it in the judge’s hands? So most judges are going to make you mediate anyway.
Rachel Kipnis
So if you were a client who came to me and said, we’d made this parenting plan two years ago, it is not working. My kid is miserable. We’re doing two, two, three, whatever we’re doing every other week.
And it’s just the general rule of thumb, by the way, is that the older the child is, the less frequently they need to switch back and forth. So a teenager would be much happier doing every other week versus a five-year-old who should be doing two, two, three. Because when a child is younger, they really need to have more contact with each parent.
And also, they don’t have the capability of communicating with their parents on their own, sending a text message, FaceTiming mom when they’re not with mom. And we do FaceTimes every day, but we have a two-and-a-half-year-old. So sometimes she’s into FaceTiming, and sometimes she says, I’m very busy.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
I’m organizing. Don’t be the parent who has a child under the age of six that is fighting for a 20-minute phone call every day. Because I’ve had this with kids as young as 18 months.
And it’s like, I don’t want to talk on the phone for 20 minutes, let alone 10, let alone five. I don’t understand it. Our FaceTimes are, I would say, three minutes at best for both of us.
Rachel Kipnis
That’s both of us doing that. And that’s with us corralling her into the screen. And like, talk to mom!
Look at mom! Talk to mom! We really are very cooperative when we’re FaceTiming.
We’re really trying to get some quality time for the other parent. And it’s really hard with little kids. But that being said, we don’t have a set amount of time.
We’ve never had a set amount of time. And maybe later on down the line, we’re going to say, we should have set something more strict as she got older. Right.
That the other parent really, we’re just not in that place. But I can see how for a couple that has a harder time getting along, having more parameters for your floor, thinking of your parenting plan as the floor, would be a good idea.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Right. So I’ve always heard that there is, you need to prove a significant change in circumstances in order to make a change to the timesharing arrangement. What does a significant change in circumstances look like?
Rachel Kipnis
I mean, very significant. My ex-husband has a girlfriend living with him. That’s not significant.
Significant is my ex-husband developed a heroin problem and he’s doing drugs around the kids. Got it. Got it.
I think that my child is being abused in the other household. I mean, it’s really, the Florida law really protects parents, which I have feelings about. I think it should be more child centric.
And I’m sure that you have a similar feeling. It really protects timesharing for the parents. Okay.
And it really, the law wants parents to have 50-50 timesharing.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
And so it is- But it’s a law. It’s like what, you know, I used to be a special education teacher and the beauty of having a child with an IEP, an Individualized Education Plan, is you’re not saying this is the core curriculum, these are the state standards, this is where the child needs to rise up to. It’s where can we meet the child where they’re at?
And that’s the whole point of an IEP. What do they need in order to thrive? And I, when I help clients with parenting plans, I’m looking at it like that.
We’re not trying to fit the child into this plan. We’re trying to make the plan work for the child’s life. And I just don’t understand why we’re still in this- So I guess then the statute’s the real floor, right?
Rachel Kipnis
Your parenting plan can be better than that. And that was something that actually my ex and I said to each other a lot when we were getting divorced. We know what the law is and we can do better for each other.
So what is better for the other person? Right. And when you start to think about fitting these puzzle pieces together in a parenting plan of what’s good for our child now?
We have no idea what our child’s going to need in the future, but let’s try to look forward a little bit. We didn’t do a good job of that. And what are our desires around that also?
And where’s the Venn diagram of those things? Like there’s this small Venn diagram. And I think a great way to work on it is to say, here are the things we can agree on.
Something that we agreed on is I’m Jewish. We’re raising our child Jewish. My ex is not Jewish.
Shabbat is really important. My ex said, you should always have Fridays. Fridays are Shabbat.
That’s family time. So we always have Fridays. There’s exceptions.
Something’s going on. It’s my ex’s birthday. Fine.
No problem. But on the whole, I’m going to end up with 48 Fridays of the year. Right.
Because she understood that was really important to me. We don’t need to fight about it. Right.
Great. What’s something that’s really important to her? Sunday night dinner with her family.
Love that. Sunday night dinners are always hers.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Love that. Where are we at? Okay.
I have a few more questions, but I want to say to anybody who is in a situation where you really do believe going to court is the only way to be heard, right? Like, let’s say there is evidence of abuse that is kind of hard to prove, or emotional abuse, I know, is a big thing for a lot of people, and they’re worried about how it’s affecting the kids. When is it actually worth going to court?
Rachel Kipnis
So when you really think that there’s damage happening to your child, and it’s not the kind of damage that’s parenting you dislike, because that’s not the same thing. I don’t like that he uses time out. I don’t like that she watches TV for five hours when she’s at my ex’s house.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
That’s a preference. Right. Just because they do things differently than you doesn’t mean it’s being done the wrong way, but if this parent is leaving them home alone for hours on end, or using drugs, or what if your child is simply saying, I hate being there, I don’t want to go?
Rachel Kipnis
So the court’s not going to help you. Right. That is a decision.
And here’s the other reality, and I thought this earlier, and maybe started to say it and didn’t, most courts are going to make you mediate anyway. So if you want to save yourself time, energy, money, and you have someone vaguely reasonable on the other side, they don’t have to be super reasonable, you can say, I don’t want to file something about this. This is going to cost us so much money and so much energy.
Can we go see a parenting coordinator together? We’re going to end up there anyway. That’s where we’re going.
Right. So we can just shortcut our way there. Right.
That’s smart. Can we sit down with a mediator? A lot of parenting plans or marital settlement agreements have a mediation clause in it.
Right. We will go to mediation.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
And if they don’t, it should. Yes. Don’t forget that, because you will have problems down the line.
Rachel Kipnis
The other thing that I tell people is, you don’t want to be controlled in your household, so you cannot control the other person in their household. You don’t like their new girlfriend. Bummer.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Right. You don’t like how they feed your child. That stinks.
Like many moms. In the beginning, I was like, literally, and I feel so bad for my ex, because he really like, had I just given him the space to like, he wasn’t doing it wrong. I was just like, you know, does her sunscreen have chemicals in it?
And, you know, here’s a link to articles about like consistent bedtime routines and da-da-da. And had I just taken a step back and realized that I’m not like the best parent or know-it-all parent in the world. Like, it comes from a place of fear and I get it.
But one of the best things I’ve found now being eight years into it is, A, when you give somebody, yes, my daughter was two and I was doing the most of everything when we were together. When you give someone the space to do it in their own way, not only will they usually rise to the occasion and figure it out, it allows the child to bond with them in a different way. Like, my daughter has her way at dad’s house and her way at mom’s house.
And while they’re different, they’re both consistent. So she knows what to expect and like, he’s way cooler with music and movies than I am. Right?
I’m more of the opposite and I do other things. But it’s like, it’s okay that things are not being done the same as long as they’re done safely and you’re not constantly devaluing the way it’s being done in the other home. That’s the worst for kids.
Rachel Kipnis
And I think that a huge gift that you can give your child is not to tell them about the conflict that you’re having. Certainly, if you say, daddy wanted to take you to a soccer game, but he’s not going to let you come to a brunch with me. And that’s really not fair.
So you’ll be missing out on brunch, but enjoy the soccer game.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Unfortunately, we know this as common sense, but common sense is not so common. If there’s nothing else you do as a co-parent, don’t do that.
Rachel Kipnis
And it’s okay. So now if you want to, I’m not doing that, right? Like someone who’s listening to you, probably not doing that.
So what’s the next step? I hype up going to my ex’s house starting the day before she goes, Saturday night. Aren’t you so excited to see mom?
And she’s remarried and her new wife. Tomorrow you’re going to see Grammy and Papa at night. And you’re going to see your cousins at night.
And like, I am pumped for her. I’m so sad that she’s leaving. I always want her to be with me.
It’s not about you. And you know that. And she is so happy to go there.
And if I was unhappy about her going there, she would be unhappy about it because she’s not even three years old yet.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
The hardest thing is when you are trying to be that supportive parent and they’re like, but I’m not going to have fun there. I don’t like it there. And then it’s, then you’re walking a fine line between invalidating their experiences and giving them the tools.
And I think it’s always worth, you know, having that conversation of what don’t you like, but what parts are good. Right. Because inevitably you’re going to run into that as a co-parent, like kids get pissed at their parents.
And sometimes it’s for serious reasons. Sometimes it’s just because someone took the iPad away, you know? So it’s walking such a fine line between invalidating them and talking bad about the other parent, but hopefully they won’t come to that point or Millie won’t come to that point where she doesn’t want to go.
I don’t think she will. I mean, I’m sure that she will for both of us. She can be a teenager one day and she’s not going to want to talk to either of us.
Right, right. That’s not personal then. It’s just like hormonal.
Rachel Kipnis
Right. And you hope that you’ve gotten to a place with your co-parent by the time that you get there. And I was talking to someone over the weekend who was saying that her child, who’s now an adult, had a really tough time with her dad and they were divorced when she was a teenager.
But that these parents in putting their children really, really, really first had bought a second home when they got divorced that was half a mile away. So they were living really close to each other. And when the daughter would have a huge fight with the dad, the dad would call the mom and say, like, come pick her up.
She wants to come home. Reasonable. She doesn’t want to be here.
And it’d be a couple of days and then she’d go back. But that child felt that both parents were on her side. She knew that somewhere inside of her.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Right. Well, that’s a unicorn of a situation, but one can only hope. All right.
Let’s wrap. I mean, I don’t think I’ve had so much good advice from the financial and co-parenting standpoint in one episode before. So I really appreciate it.
Rachel Kipnis
I want to say one more thing about the financial, because we started talking about the property appraiser. There’s a lot of public information. You can go on Sunbiz in Florida and it will tell you every single officer and director of any business that’s registered in Florida.
Okay. So if you don’t know, my husband’s a businessman. He does business.
Right. Okay. His LinkedIn profile will tell you what businesses he’s working with.
Okay. You know. Do a little digging.
Just Google. And everyone has a girlfriend.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
I know it’ll come to your mind immediately who that person is who is so good at stalking. Her name is Elise. She can find anyone, anything, anywhere in like 30 seconds.
Mine is named Elizabeth.
Rachel Kipnis
But you tell Elizabeth, when I started dating, I’d be like, oh, I’m going on a date with this guy. She’s like, did you find it? Did you do that?
Did you do that? Court records. And like, she would find everything.
Recruit that friend to help you.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
That’s, she’s your private investigator. Oh my God. Best advice.
Okay. So all in all, whoever’s listening to this right now probably got to the end of this episode because they are on the brink of leaving or wanting to leave or not sure where to start. What would you say to someone who just feels so powerless at the point that they’re at right now in their lives and they know they want to get a divorce?
Rachel Kipnis
The more information you have, the better you’re going to feel. And you’re going to start, and it feels like you’re in a vacuum of information. My husband or my ex-spouse always dealt with our finances.
I just put stuff on the credit card. I don’t even know what our mortgage payment is. I don’t know anything.
Start to pull your own information. You probably had a login to your bank account at some point, and you never just went into it. Go into it.
Look at your bank account. How many bank accounts do you have? You can just start looking at things, understanding whose health insurance am I on?
Am I on a business’ health insurance or are we self-insured? Starting to understand what all these components are. By the way, you can download the financial affidavit off of the website, off of the court’s website, any court in the country, and then you’ll have an idea of all the financial questions that you’re going to be asked.
Mm-hmm. So now you have an outline of information. Here are the things I need to think about.
Here’s a really scary and uncomfortable thing to do. Pull your credit card statements for the last six months. Yeah, disgusting, right?
No, thanks. I remember having to give my credit card statements to my lawyer, who’s a friend of mine. I was like, don’t look too carefully.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
And I was giving him excuses. I was like, we were renovating a home. I know you’re a lawyer, and I’m sure he’s seen it all.
Yeah, he’s definitely seen worse than me. But it’s true. Feeling zero control or a lack of power in any situation is just not knowing what to expect.
And so the best way to get a little bit more control back and feel like you can tackle something is to know what’s coming. So that education piece is huge. It’s strategic.
Talk to a few lawyers. Ask the right questions. Know what is available to you, what your state’s divorce process looks like, how much time it might take, how backlogged the courts are.
All of this is going to help you in terms of taking the next step, knowing how long the process may be in front of you, and feeling like you can finally put one foot in front of the other.
Rachel Kipnis
I think you said it, but going to see a lawyer, it doesn’t mean you’re getting divorced. You’re information gathering. And we were talking about this sort of at the beginning of our conversation.
How often do people come in and don’t get divorced? I know when those people are not getting divorced because they walk out, and I feel their energy has just come down. The intensity is down.
They were just looking for information. Okay, now I know six months from now, if my husband hasn’t stopped drinking, if we can’t get our finances together, if we’re still fighting about the kids all the time, now I know what’s going to happen. That’s my favorite part of my job.
It’s what I liked as a prosecutor, too, was that you’re in this situation that you’ve never been in before, and you never wanted to be in this situation. And I have a good idea of what’s going to happen to you. And I can hold your hand and walk you through it.
And that’s the kind of relationship that I want to have with my clients. If that’s the type of relationship you want to have with your lawyer, meet with some lawyers and see who you’re going to find that way. That’s not every lawyer’s way that they handle things.
I’m a little touchy-feely.
Michelle Dempsey-Multack
Well, I think that’s a benefit because this is a very emotional process. You know, your lawyer’s not there to be your therapist, but they should at least have enough heart to hold your hand, metaphorically, when you’re in distress. Okay, so you’re on Instagram as the Divorce Strategist.
I’m the Split Strategist. The Split Strategist. I should know that because I…
Because you came up with it! The Split Strategist. And you are, your firm is in Boca, but you practice…
We practice in the whole state. In the whole state. Okay, amazing.
And I’m in Miami, so… Miami girl through and through. Former prosecutor.
This girl knows what she’s doing. Thank you guys for being here, being a part of the Moving On Method. We love bringing you information that helps to inform.
This is a lawyer, but this is not your personal legal advice, so always continue to ask questions, be your own best advocate, and we’ll see you next time on the Moving On Method. Thanks for being here.
Rachel Kipnis
Thank you so much for having me. Of course, it was so fun.
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